tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post4095567409507759267..comments2024-01-17T02:39:06.048-05:00Comments on rude truth: hope sinksJJThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14920416765778868736noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-68306632442423094102010-09-29T11:31:18.152-05:002010-09-29T11:31:18.152-05:00hi Wendy--glad you found your way over here and th...hi Wendy--glad you found your way over here and thanks for your voice in the preachermike discussion, too.<br /><br />and sorry for the belated acknowledgement...I've been distracted with a sick kid and a <i>lot</i> of blog commenting these past couple days!JJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14920416765778868736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-85097653776315967632010-09-25T10:00:39.811-05:002010-09-25T10:00:39.811-05:00Absolutely!Absolutely!Keith Brentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08370891993969932472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-13957042830938780282010-09-25T09:06:49.400-05:002010-09-25T09:06:49.400-05:00Keith, I take your point.
If there's one thin...Keith, I take your point.<br /><br />If there's one thing I don't like about the post as it's written, it's that it could be interpreted in that dichotomous conservative Bible-lover vs. liberal Bible-hater way. Whereas I'm convinced that "lalalala'ing" your way through biblical interpretation is a sort of violence to the text, among other things.<br /><br />And I agree with you that there is plenty in the text that might jar our received interpretation and practice with regard to women. But I think in order to see or hear those things, one must be open to the possibility that they exist, within the text and without. Which means, I think, being able to hear the witness of the women around us first--that "magic key" which I'm afraid isn't maybe so magic after all. Sigh.JJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14920416765778868736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-9054738343019026132010-09-25T08:12:11.529-05:002010-09-25T08:12:11.529-05:00JTB, you said ... "To be 'rude' about...JTB, you said ... "To be 'rude' about it, I'm stuck with an image of incredibly sincere, faithful, loving people opening their Bibles, staring fixedly at the text, and sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "lalalalalalala" to drown out the sound of these women's voices."<br /><br />I'm in the process of transitioning from a "sola scriptura" guy to a "prima scriptura" guy (scripture first - I hope that's what it means). So I have no intention of denigrating the experience and perceptions of women - but I still believe there are ample descriptions in scripture of women serving in a way we would now describe as preaching. My edit would be in the phrase "at the text," which I'd amend to "at certain texts (to the exclusion of others inconvenient to what they wish to believe)."<br /><br />Scripture can be difficult and convoluted and can appear self-contradictory. But that's only an appearance, I'm convinced.Keith Brentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08370891993969932472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-30004492458091419292010-09-24T21:06:52.467-05:002010-09-24T21:06:52.467-05:00I found your blog through the podcast and Mike Cop...I found your blog through the podcast and Mike Cope's post. Thank you for your courage and your voice. I am very blessed to be in Australia where nearly all the Churches of Christ are egalitarian. It has enhanced my faith-walk exponentially to be in a congregation where women can use all their gifts to serve (I was previously in a evangelical Anglican church) and it has empowered my daughter amazingly.Wendyhttp://wjcsydney.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-62589271761631594762010-09-24T19:27:22.397-05:002010-09-24T19:27:22.397-05:00Awesome, JTB!! I'm so glad you're on our ...Awesome, JTB!! I'm so glad you're on our team and by that I mean "everyone's team."clairedfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730159862167580947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-54493404840279603032010-09-24T18:00:13.268-05:002010-09-24T18:00:13.268-05:00Hmmmm...no, I'm not a subordinationist. My tri...Hmmmm...no, I'm not a subordinationist. My trinitarian heresy leans the other way, frankly, more toward modalism, but even worse (!), I think God-talk, like all human speech, is essentially metaphorical in nature and I'm not at all convinced that we should be privileging the Father-Son metaphor the way that historically Christian theologians have done. Plenty more metaphors in the sea, and God's bigger'n all of'em.<br /><br />In regard to the biblical witness, I think at best we can characterize parts of the NT as proto-trinitarian. It's not settled yet how to parse out the relationship between Jesus and God, and there are differences between various NT writers on how it's handled. There are definitely some subordinationist leaning texts--and then there's John, busting out with the "I and the Father are one." It's just not settled in the NT canon. It's not truly settled, historically, until the Council of Chalcedon (451), at least--which was really not so much a solution as it was a decision about how to regulate language around Jesus' humanity/divinity.<br /><br />Part of the problem, which I think your comment astutely takes account of, is semantic. Notions of authority are a real key here, and maybe if we could tease that out satisfactorily then we could reach a point where we realize that submission/authority ought to come together as a package--for everyone. And then perhaps it would be evident that this mess about what women can and can't do is rendered moot thereby. If to have authority means at the same time to be in submission--then, why, women's submission would then indicate a righteous sort of authority. If one can't have one without the other, I mean.<br /><br />I feel like this comment got a bit tangled up, but I'll let it stand as is. Got to go feed the fam some dinner.JJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14920416765778868736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-16775530051521662302010-09-24T17:14:32.555-05:002010-09-24T17:14:32.555-05:00And if you think my analysis is too pessimistic or...And if you think my analysis is too pessimistic or off the mark--about the refusal to listen or the demonization of gifted women in our churches, just take a look at this: http://thispilgrimland.com/?p=1322. It is "blame the victim" at its most self-righteous and vicious.JJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14920416765778868736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12478084.post-13235852045908793582010-09-24T15:21:31.041-05:002010-09-24T15:21:31.041-05:00JTB,
I didn't want to sidetrack the other comm...JTB,<br />I didn't want to sidetrack the other comments, but I thought I'd follow up with you here.<br /><br />So you really do NOT believe Jesus is subordinate to the Father?<br /><br />So what do you do with:<br /><br />when Jesus says, "Of THAT day and hour, only the Father knows."<br /><br />Or <br /><br />1Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.<br /><br />Or<br /><br />All of John 5...<br /><br />John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he HAS GRANTED the Son to have life in himself.<br /><br />Even the titles of Father and Son inherently communicate subordination.<br /><br />But subordinate does NOT MEAN WEAK or powerless. <br /><br />Please keep your Heart's Ears open to the possibility that MAYBE the headship of 1Cor 11:3 is a subordinate pairing. I think men have been DOMINATING (like the gentiles) for so long, that submission to a man's authority seems to carry with it all the bad history of the abuse.<br /><br />In all honesty, I'd (in my flesh) just as soon defer my headship over my household, because with it comes EXTREME accountability and responsibility. I will be judged by what I did with it. I feel no hunger to dominate. My wife is MUCH stronger than me spiritually and expresses her gifts fully. But she does it all gracefully under my headship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com